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 Post subject: Re: Balance it or not
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:45 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:28 pm
Posts: 1575
Location: Tampa Bay Florida
My H1 crank was done by Damon and I don't know what he did for balancing but I was able to get the pistons, pins and bearings, as a set, very close (within .1 grams) by weighing each piece and matching the "heavy" piston with the "light" pin & bearing, etc. I put the data into an Excel spreadsheet and found combinations that came closest without removing any material from any parts! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Balance it or not
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:21 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:52 am
Posts: 360
Location: London, UK
I think the rods should be weighed at each end, ideally on two scales and material removed so each end weighs the same as on the other rods?


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 Post subject: Re: Balance it or not
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:09 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:25 am
Posts: 3163
To correctly do the rods, both ends need to be weighed, then modified to weigh the same.

I use a very sensitive digital paint scale, weighs down to a gnat's butt.

I also have a tool I built that holds one end of the rod in suspension, while the other end is being weighed. The end of the rod NOT being weighed is held straight out from the scale pad, with a holder and chain from an over head holder.

You check and modify all the big ends first, then, swap rod ends, weigh and modify the small ends.

The whole idea is to get the weights of both ends, individually, all 3 big ends weigh the same, all 3 small ends weigh the same. Then, and only then, can you formulate the weight needed for the bob weight for the balancing operation, which is piston, rings, pin, circlips, and small end rod weight. Any good balancing program can give you the formulas to do the balancing weighing and bob weights.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance it or not
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:29 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:32 am
Posts: 600
Location: Jarrettsville, MD
Looney Cylinders wrote:
Do you ever weld the cranks Charlie?

It seems welding cranks is common practice among the Yam. TZ 250 gang. On subsequent rebuilds the welds are ground out for disassembly and re welded on build up.

J


Only if needed. If they press together with a good tight fit, welding is not needed nor recommended.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance it or not
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:18 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:12 pm
Posts: 266
Location: Prescott, AZ
Looks like H2RTuner has a business opportunity in weighing rods, balancing pistons etc...
I certainly would send all of my stuff for a fee...


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 Post subject: Re: Balance it or not
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:35 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:03 am
Posts: 4612
Location: Milang, South Australia
It's too hard to balance a triple engine properly so just balance the pistons, pins ,etc - the alternative is to rubber mount the engine, or bolt it in the frame as TIGHT as you can...........!! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Balance it or not
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:12 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:30 am
Posts: 215
Location: New Zealand
A triple cannot be balanced, nor does it matter. This will cause some head scratching. Balancing is to cancel opposing forces. Imagine a boxer engine, pistons flying outwards. Here we can balance successfully, because if the reciprocating mass in each cylinder is the same, they will cancel. Same with an inline 4. The 2 end pistons reversing downwards can be cancelled by the inner two reversing upwards, AT THE SAME INSTANT.. A triple has no opposing forces to cancel... it is in effect 3 single cylinder engines mounted in series. Only ONE piston is reversing at any one time, there is no other to cancel it. There, Ive said it.... now let the sparks fly!! :D Matching reciprocating weight to crank counterweight is a different thing entirely, but cylinder to cylinder.....no point.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance it or not
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:25 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:03 am
Posts: 4612
Location: Milang, South Australia
I am completely in agreement with this discord...........!! (I hate boxer engines!! :lol: )

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 Post subject: Re: Balance it or not
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:15 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:25 am
Posts: 3163
Just why do H2 flywheels have their distinctive shape over other smaller H series cranks, then???

BALANCE FACTOR. Pistons for an H2 are heavier than ones for smaller H series, and, the counter weights need to be altered to have correct balance.

If anyone doubt that, you need to see the factory cut crank I have sitting outside in its box, H1R Very Special, has flywheels with cut-away's like an H2. That crank was worth 6 MPH in Yvon's Ontario bike for 1971. That special "pork chop" cut crank vibrated far more than a regular H1R crank, like all get out, but, H1R engines were rubber mounted, different than a street bike, but, rubber mounted anyway.

The holes in H1 street cranks are "pickled", filled with plugs, so, why are they there? To balance the crankshaft to a rudimentary specification, close, like in mass production factors. Yamaha's have these as well, this way, the cranks can stay full circle, so crank case "stuffing" is enhanced.

If balance wasn't important in a full circle crankshaft, then, why did Honda use a set of wheels in their RC450 dirt bikes that had 3 holes in them, with close offs, so individual weights inserts of 96, 100 and 104 grams could be added to set the balance? Because the balance factor needed to be changed for that engine, because it had a hollow crankshaft wheel set. The weights were changed from behind the magneto, through an access door in the cases, and, a second door on the primary side of the right case. that engine was not the same as a production CR450, it was a mirror image engine, clutch on the left, chain on the right.

When Campbell Cycle, a Suzuki dealer in Whittier, Ca., (my old home town) built a TM400 single road racer, they had a hard time finding anyone that wanted to ride it more than once, because it vibrated so bad, it put riders hands and feet to sleep from lack of blood circulation. It also had a pork chop crank. I did the second and further engines, re-balancing the crank, and the vibration was reduced considerably, down to a reasonable level, and, it won a bunch of AFM and ACA road races.

So, the myth that a full circle, multi-cylinder crankshaft has inherent "prefect balance", and that reverses in both rotating and reciprocating balance is just that, A FULL ON MYTH. Stress reversals in our triples as they run, don't have any adverse effects, never have, never will.

Saab Month Carlo and 99 series three cylinder two stroke engines have pork chop flywheels, and are factory balanced, they run smooth, and they are well over 750cc size.

Anyone ever been inside a rotary type aircraft piston engine? Remember how the counterweight is attached to the crank? The counterweight is held in place with pins through it, tightly, and through the crankshaft, in loose fitting round holes. This allows the weight to "find its own center" as the engine is running, to compensate for slight off balance of the whole rotating/reciprocating mass (mess). the clearance between the crankshaft holes and weight pins os the reason we hear one fo those engines make the mechanical "clanking" sound, like they have something loose inside them, as they almost reach full stop when shutting down. In essence, they do have something "loose" inside them, the weight itself.

Anyone that says balancing a triples crank is just a waste of time, or, is not needed, is simply not knowledgeable about how a crankshaft really works, and there are many persons in the business that have NO CLUE.

I also weld every pin, not with TIG, but MIG weld. Big end pin holes in our cranks are hardened, TIG welding anneals (softens) that heat treat, allowing reduced ton press fits, and problems. MIG welding doesn't to that nearly as bad. I use my 110 volt body and fender MIG welder, has worked better than any other method so far in my doing pressed together crankshaft rebuild and modification, that's been over 40 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance it or not
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:14 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:12 pm
Posts: 2169
i just did my rd crank a few weeks ago. i did balance the rods (they were really close though, new pro-x units) , pistons since they need to be modded anyway(tang cut off bottom), its easy, and the flywheels. i used a center drill to remove small 'pockets' on the flywheels and it was pretty easy. time consuming but not bad. the yamaha stuff seems to be pretty good out of the box though. the S2 crank was def worse out. And, i did mig the pins in carefully to reduce spread on the rd crank. Ive seen the rd cranks spread quite a bit unwelded.


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