Well Moo.... I reckon that was real DRIVEL, and I reckon I do have the right of reply.
Tuner, To hell with all these other bikes... the original questions referred to only the 120 degree triple. Hondas, Laverdas, V12s etc have NOTHING to do with it. I specifically stated inlines and other than 120 degree triples were different. You are putting ALL engines in the one basket. Triples are different Tuner, they fire at 120 degrees. Ignitions...... I have yet to see one of yours..... I know I have asked about these once or twice. Do you have photos??? I believe these are special phantom ignition units, and never break down. Fortunately, for hundreds of happy customers, mine are real ones Tuner, and can and do give problems, just as my balancing machine is also real. Unlike your perfect "Hank the Crank" model, mine is home built, so of much lesser quality.
My balancing factor would likely be different to yours Tuner.... as likely would anyone elses who statically balances crankshafts. I thought an expert like you would know that. Basically, it means your guess at how much of the rod is actually reciprocating, and how much is rotating, will be different to mine.... thats if you actually have a real conrod to play with. Fortunately, as I have already said, and have proved, triples cannot be balanced as a unit, so almost any balance factor is likely to work, vibes worse higher or lower in the rev range.. Tuner,there are many ways of acheiving the same ends, you seem to think there is only one, you almost appear to do everything by rote, with no great understanding of why, and drop in a name here or there, names that are no doubt famous in the US, but meaningless to me. For all I know, this Hank the Crank dude may have given you this balancing machine cause it was shagged.... it doesnt automatically mean it must be the best, else why would he give it to you?? . Rather than being nasty to people, I invite you to make some vector diagrams of the forces involved with a 120 degree triple using the information/links I have posted to back up my claims. These diagrams I use to calculate electrical load imbalances in three phase electrical systems, so work very well for triples. Do two lots..... one using matched cylinder weights, and another set using unmatched cylinder weights. That way, I cannot be accused of fiddling the results, as you clearly dont trust my judgment. Post them here, prove me wrong, bet you cant. You may even learn something ,instead of your normal name calling, name dropping and citing irrelevant stuff you have probably just read somewhere.
H2RTuner wrote:
Actually, a 120 degree triple balances better than a 180 degree one ever will. Now, before you tell me I am an idiot, remember the Laverda triples. First series was 120 degree crank phasing, later ones, 180. The later engines vibrate far more than the early ones, even after the correct balance is attained. The 120 degree engines fire all 3 in one 360 degree phase, and dead head the other 360 degree cycles event. The 180 crank engine has the regular two cyls at TDC together, one on fire, one on overlap. The center cyl is 180 degrees later, and only one cyl fires. This gives us a 1809 degree firing pulse setup on the firsat 360 rotation, and a single fire on the next 360 degree phasing. Vibration city. Think of the 180 engine as an inline 4, with one cylinder spark plug wire yanked off.
Lets take a closer look at the Honda inline 125 5 cylinder, and Ferrari V12.
125 5 had coupling reversals every 72 degrees of 360 degree revolution, somewhat good overlap of events. But, that was on just one of the 720 degree cycles of a 4 stroke. That engine fired all 5 on one of the 360 degree phasings, and dead headed the other 360, creating a large "hole" that had other vibration issues.
The Ferrari V12 has 60 degree phasing, all 720 degrees, and is smooth as a baby's tuchas. In this engine, we have 6 equally spaced firing pulses in EACH 360 degree event, with 60 degree coupling overlap. Way smooth.
The less overlap of firing events per 360 degree rotation, the smoother the engine is, and, when balance is correct, smoother still.
Cadillac/LaSalle had a V16 4 stroke engine in the late 1930's, and it was reported to be so smooth, one could put a lit cigarette on the air filter, on end, and rev the engine, and the only thing that would alter the cigarette's position was the air blown back from the fan behind the radiator. 1930's. V16, 720 degrees, 45 degrees coupling overlap. Dead smooth.
Yes, I do have a crankshaft balancing machine, have had one for 40 plus years, came out of Hank Bechloft's "Crank Shaft Company" performance shop in Los Angeles, where I worked, and learned balancing correctly. Hank founded "Hank, the Crank" later, did balancing all the way up to his death, and, I used to go by and help when I could at Hank's new place. I did all the racer crank balancing when I worked for R.C. Engineering as well, for the Top Fuel and Pro-Stock bikes.
The question is, just how many "Star-Fire" ignitions have blown up, didn't work from new, and were recalled" That I want to know.
Just about anyone can do an ignition system these days, but, doing a good one is a lot harder than is made out in the advertizing world. I do custom ignition systems for cars, convert older point distributors to a conversion I devised and developed, using existing GM HEI modules. I do one for a regular HEI, carburetted engines, vacuum and mechanical advance, MSD trigger only, same as the regular HEI, without the HEI module, and EFI-HEI for GM and aftermarket electronic fuel injection setups. My failure rate is somewhat low, ONE regular HEI module, from being connected backwards by the customer, but, I warrantee it anyway, and no pickup failures. i thought about doing motorcycle ignition systems, but, haven't seen the real need to do so. There are enough good systems out there, replacement parts, and a few here that do excellent ignition resto of our original systems, we don't need another brand new snake oil system to confuse and fail.
Back to balancing, just what balance factor would StarFire use for a Kawasaki triple, H1 engine, with slotted rods?? I know what I would use, and will send that factor to barry b just after I get done with this post, and ask him to hold it until Dayle tells us his answer. I know what engine balancing is, how to do it right, know the theory and application, have done same for over 4 decades, and am not getting into a battle of wits with a completely un-arned person over balancing.
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