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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:26 pm
Posts: 1746
Location: Running Springs Ca
So I'm looking over the motor on the 72 H2 I just bought from Fran Golden. He told me the bottom end was done by George Roach. Looks like
late style 74-5 replacement cases and they where stamped with a 8000XX number. The vent tube hole in the back is welded and the clutch cover
filler cap has been drilled and fitted with a tube and vent hose. Also the check valves in the bottom of the case are welded shut. Is this some type
of mod builders did to these in the 70's and early 80's. It has a oil pump feeding the crank with a 74-5 oil line but the top end is premix.

Not being a fan of premix for the street I'm hoping the late style replacement cases didn't come with the feed holes for the top end drilled.
I'm thinking if there where feed holes the builder would have welded them to and I hate drilling through welds. Top end is one of Paul Gast's
and Fran thought 120hp but doesn't feel like it since in has good torque like a stock motor. I don't see any spacers under the cylinders
either. Has 34mm carbs and surprisingly the jetting isn't to far off for my 6200 ft elevation here. Not sure if the clutch has been modded
but I would think the builder would have if running a ported motor.

I'm probably going to pull the motor all apart and see what was done and then set it up for oil injection. Thing starts first kick and idles very good.
This is my third 72, my first was blue, second was gold, now what color should this one be :?:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:24 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:34 pm
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Location: North Central NC
67lotus49 wrote:
...now what color should this one be :?:


Pink.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:07 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:26 pm
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Location: Running Springs Ca
You did make me laugh with that one Jim. :lol: By the way, I'm going to be needing another H2 all in one box. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:09 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:26 pm
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Location: Running Springs Ca
If I decide to run oil injection on the the VM34's do I tap the bowl for the banjo bolt? Just looking for a backup plan if I can't drill the oil passages
in the case.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:32 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:25 am
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Ah, the late George Roche, or, George Jareau, Rene Roche, Rene Jareau, he jumped from name to name for decades. He was a racer that originally came out of the Sacramento area, then, to Santa Ana, and was one of the original non-factory Kawasaki triples road race campaigners in ACA, AFM, and even AMA racing.

His last private company was GRIP, George Roche Iconoclastic Products (although many thought it should have had an E on the end, for GRIPE, which he did constantly about NOT being a full factory Team Hansen/Team Kawasaki race rider. He used to build some very bizarre stuff, and try to get impossible stuff to work, usually failing. Things like GRIP pipes, only bad issue, the stinger take off was in the PRIMARY PIPE, "after all, the stinger is only a pressure bleed, NOT a tuning device". Then, there was his insistence of using giant carbs, like trying to fit and tune 44 or 45mm specials on H1 engines he ported into oblivion.

George finally want back to the Sacramento area twords the end of his life, worked in a couple of Kawasaki shops, one Yamaha, and slipped into controlled substances, of which, he got too far into, got arrested, and ended up ending his own life. He was unique, still a friend, and a real PITA at times, he just got mixed up in stuff he couldn't get out of, and took the easiest, most unfortunate path.

That said, you have a set or Roche modified street bike cases. The welded closed trans vent and clutch cover was to emulate the H1R/H2R fill/vent, which was done in the oil filler cap. Another thing to look at if you pull the clutch cover off, is the shift claw. If it is still a street claw, it will have the under drum lever only. If it is, in fact, an H1R claw, also used in H2R, it will have an upper claw. much the same as S and some F series claws. To fit that race shaft and claw, the oil ledge above the shift shaft that drips oil onto the rear gear sets, will be machined back into the upper case, to clear the upper claw.

Now, as far as the oiling for a 3 hose pump, that is the best pump to use, NOT the 4 outlet ones. 4 outlet pumps need to have the carb oilers fed into the bowls, NOT the bores, and there needs to be tubes inside the bowls to do it right, so the oil travels up the pipes, then out into the fuel in the bowl, making the bowl contents premix.

The idea was to mimic the H2R setups, pumps at minimum on the crank end, and premix for the rest of the engine. Never did work as well as the 3 outlet pumps do.

The 3 hole systems are MUCH better, but, with a caveat. The connector hole in the case ISN'T regulated in the early cases, there are two oil orifii, both set to deliver a metered amount of oil to both the lower end and into the intake port. The lower end metering restriction is a brass drilled hole in the bottom of the cylinder end of the oil line banjo bolt. the cylinder port end is a brass metering hole in the oil port between the base gasket area and intake port floor. They are usually somewhere near .013 inch. I use an Allen set screw, drilled correctly, then placed into a stepped hole drilled passage in the barrel, larger on the gasket side than the port side, so the insert will not travel out of the hole, into the port.

To drill the case delivery holes, I built my own fixture, has a drill guide in it, and mimics a Kreg wood drilling tool, angled, drill is guided, and tool bolts down to the cases, via the cylinder studs.

Me, I'd run the 3 outlet pump, no premix.

Is there any welding in the areas behind the cylinders, between the crank housings and trans case? If so,m that was the weakest point in H2 cases, they crack there when high rpms and crank alignment whip come up at higher rpms. If you don't plan to run the engine past the 6 to 6.5K revs, you probably won't need the welding, if you run trhem up to the 10.7K to 11.1K rpm levels we ran some of them, weld, weld, weld. YES, they will run that high, but, it takes one heck of a LOT of work to do so...dubiously safely.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:59 am 
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You can either tap into the secondary bowl vent on the carb, or drill the cases, which is easy.
Image

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:26 pm
Posts: 1746
Location: Running Springs Ca
H2RTuner wrote:
Ah, the late George Roche, or, George Jareau, Rene Roche, Rene Jareau, he jumped from name to name for decades. He was a racer that originally came out of the Sacramento area, then, to Santa Ana, and was one of the original non-factory Kawasaki triples road race campaigners in ACA, AFM, and even AMA racing.

His last private company was GRIP, George Roche Iconoclastic Products (although many thought it should have had an E on the end, for GRIPE, which he did constantly about NOT being a full factory Team Hansen/Team Kawasaki race rider. He used to build some very bizarre stuff, and try to get impossible stuff to work, usually failing. Things like GRIP pipes, only bad issue, the stinger take off was in the PRIMARY PIPE, "after all, the stinger is only a pressure bleed, NOT a tuning device". Then, there was his insistence of using giant carbs, like trying to fit and tune 44 or 45mm specials on H1 engines he ported into oblivion.

George finally want back to the Sacramento area twords the end of his life, worked in a couple of Kawasaki shops, one Yamaha, and slipped into controlled substances, of which, he got too far into, got arrested, and ended up ending his own life. He was unique, still a friend, and a real PITA at times, he just got mixed up in stuff he couldn't get out of, and took the easiest, most unfortunate path.

That said, you have a set or Roche modified street bike cases. The welded closed trans vent and clutch cover was to emulate the H1R/H2R fill/vent, which was done in the oil filler cap. Another thing to look at if you pull the clutch cover off, is the shift claw. If it is still a street claw, it will have the under drum lever only. If it is, in fact, an H1R claw, also used in H2R, it will have an upper claw. much the same as S and some F series claws. To fit that race shaft and claw, the oil ledge above the shift shaft that drips oil onto the rear gear sets, will be machined back into the upper case, to clear the upper claw.

Now, as far as the oiling for a 3 hose pump, that is the best pump to use, NOT the 4 outlet ones. 4 outlet pumps need to have the carb oilers fed into the bowls, NOT the bores, and there needs to be tubes inside the bowls to do it right, so the oil travels up the pipes, then out into the fuel in the bowl, making the bowl contents premix.

The idea was to mimic the H2R setups, pumps at minimum on the crank end, and premix for the rest of the engine. Never did work as well as the 3 outlet pumps do.

The 3 hole systems are MUCH better, but, with a caveat. The connector hole in the case ISN'T regulated in the early cases, there are two oil orifii, both set to deliver a metered amount of oil to both the lower end and into the intake port. The lower end metering restriction is a brass drilled hole in the bottom of the cylinder end of the oil line banjo bolt. the cylinder port end is a brass metering hole in the oil port between the base gasket area and intake port floor. They are usually somewhere near .013 inch. I use an Allen set screw, drilled correctly, then placed into a stepped hole drilled passage in the barrel, larger on the gasket side than the port side, so the insert will not travel out of the hole, into the port.

To drill the case delivery holes, I built my own fixture, has a drill guide in it, and mimics a Kreg wood drilling tool, angled, drill is guided, and tool bolts down to the cases, via the cylinder studs.

Me, I'd run the 3 outlet pump, no premix.

Is there any welding in the areas behind the cylinders, between the crank housings and trans case? If so,m that was the weakest point in H2 cases, they crack there when high rpms and crank alignment whip come up at higher rpms. If you don't plan to run the engine past the 6 to 6.5K revs, you probably won't need the welding, if you run trhem up to the 10.7K to 11.1K rpm levels we ran some of them, weld, weld, weld. YES, they will run that high, but, it takes one heck of a LOT of work to do so...dubiously safely.


Thanks so much for the wealth of information Dave. I hoping since they are late cases that holes weren't drilled to the cylinders. I'm thinking if they where drilled
he probably welded them shut. If they are welded shut it will be a pain to drill. Good idea on using a jig, I was thinking of something to help guide it.
I'll only be happy once I pull it all apart and see what was done. Never ever have liked premix on a street bike. Looked around for any early H2 oil lines in
my garage but I think they all went to Danny when he bought my last 72 project last year. Other than the strange mods done to the cases this bike is
really nice.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:34 pm
Posts: 7957
Location: North Central NC
67lotus49 wrote:
I hoping since they are late cases that holes weren't drilled to the cylinders. I'm thinking if they where drilled
he probably welded them shut. If they are welded shut it will be a pain to drill.


I don't think so. If they were welded shut, it's only filled near the surface, so it would only take a small amount of drilling to clear it back out. Much easier than drilling from scratch. Aluminum doesn't have the problem of making hard spots from welding like steel sometimes does anyway. Aluminum welds are soft unless they were heat treated, so just use a lot of cutting fluid like water or kerosene to keep the bit clear.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:39 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:26 pm
Posts: 1746
Location: Running Springs Ca
I have a old broken 74 case that I will practice on first. Looks like I may have to pull one the center cylinder studs to get a straight shot.
Will go get a 1/2 dozen new Cobalt bits and bring my good drill from work. Have one of the new Milwaukee brushless 20v ones that works
great.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:17 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:25 am
Posts: 2342
Simple way to see if the upper case is already drilled, even with top end still in place. Look down the oil line banjo bolt holes. If there is the end of the angle drilled hole, case is drilled. Hole may well be welded closed on base gasket end, but, air through the bolt hole, and finger over hole in early inlet ports should reveal air passing through the oil hole.

Of course, any variation couple stop the air, late case-early cyls, early case-late cyls, etc.

I fully agree with Jim, IF the holes are there, but welded closed, the welds shouldn't be hard to drill away. Here is also where a drill jig comes in very handily.

What I said about the R shift claw is seen in John's picture above. Left edge of it, just below the engine number, there is what looks like an aluminum "finger" just under the clutch cover boss. That finger is for lube on to the output shaft, and that one works with a stock street bike single claw shift shaft only.

Now, if that finger is cut back into the clutch cavity, the cut was done to clear the dual claw R series shift shafts, but works just fine with standard street bike shift shafts as well.


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