Kawi2strokes.com Forum

If you haven't already, do some careful studying on the codes for needles. I remember laying a couple sets out on the bench, marking with a sharpie and carefully measuring with a digital calipers. We need some kinda carb jet/needle exchange program as I'm sure a bunch of us have a pile of needles we put in for one run, "that doesn't work" and parked them. So many variables of porting, pipes, carbs, reeds, filters/intake etc someone else's jetting won't be more than a good starting point. If you are reducing the bog by using a needle that's leaner in the middle, ...you are likely on the right track that it's too rich. You probably already know but, make sure some of that timing comes back out before it starts coming on the pipe. Running race fuel provides a measure of safety at least until it's sorted.

I was wondering that myself, how it all works and if this will work, will it trigger the pick-ups.
With the Zeel PCDI-30 the wires from the pick-ups no longer get connected to anything but the Zeel, they are just triggers from what I can tell. The Zeel does the rest, I think...I am not anyone to be assessing this kind of stuff and I don't know how they work stock!
But I am willing to experiment! Its just an old motor bike
Also it is moved such a small amount..If it works great, if not I hope I don't wreck anything else trying it and Ill go back!
The modification to the ignition rotor was easy, fill, mark, drill, done!

Motometal,
I have been studying the Mikuni charts, needles, needle jets ect, ect. I have just ordered some more needles and have enough of the rest of the jets to be a dealer, I also have different slides. Next spring IT WILL RUN WELL! (I hope)
I believe I am fighting the porting and pipe.
John has kindly called me and said he will gladly increase my transfer port timing in exchange for some paper products with dead presidents on them. That, from what I am told and have looked into myself would help a bunch in the middle, I am not looking for the last bit of power or anything like that.
I am hoping to send my cylinders soon but as economically as John works I still need to sneak it in the budget or its curtains for me

Some people in my house think I spend too much on motorcycle parts, if she only saw the stuff you all do!

Hi Demus. I really have no clue if this will work or not, and I just don't freakin understand why you only get 23 and some as maximum advance. It is a total mistery to me. And regarding the zeel is slower than the stock cdi (less advance with same settings)........mine was the opposite. After ONLY innstalling zeel, I got more advance, not less.

Have you ohmed your pick-ups? Maybe they are too bad for a zeel set-up??? Mine are all in the 180 area.

And when you set your static, how did you do it? Can you explain, with your own words, step by step, how you did it??

Jørgen

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72 H2, 72 H1B, 74 H2, 74 H2 Cafê Racer, 71 F8 Bison

And what signal compensation delay is programmed into your zeel?

The more compensation you put in, the less advance you get at lower revs. (but you get a more accurate timing curve as the revvs goes up. But it is in the critical 4000-5500 rpm area you need the extra advance at the most)

Try setting the compensation at zero.

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72 H2, 72 H1B, 74 H2, 74 H2 Cafê Racer, 71 F8 Bison

Hi Jorgen hope you and your family are doing well,
I have gone over and over and over setting and measuring where the crank angle is when the ignition rotor hits the pick -up and no matter how many times I did it I came up with the same thing.
I too think its weird and as far as I can tell its you, BBP and me who are using the PCDI-30 and I believe Jim H has one also on a race bike. Both you and BBP have the same experience with yours, so I am left wondering...

Find TDC, drop the piston turning the engine with the dial indicator in the correct piston, watching the correct pick-up coil until the ignition rotor and pick up look like the picture sent with the Zeel instructions, which shows the ignition rotor just hitting the leading edge of the pick -up.
I have searched this site (and others) and have come to the conclusion there must be variances in how much you can move the plates.
I did test my pick-ups and they did read over 180 closer to 200 but I was assured they would work but maybe with the Zeel iggy they don't work as well.
I was assuming the pick-ups where just Hall affect switches or sensors and they just triggered the ignition, but I am not smart enough to know theses things, so maybe my pickups are delaying the whole thing.
My composition is set at 30 and seems stable running the recommended testing from the Zeel instructions.

Also here is a quote from Jim H from another thread which gave me some hope that I wasn't just crazy with how mine is working;
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6485&hilit=low+speed+coils+zeeltronic

"JimH
I've been importing the Zeeltronic line and using and selling the units for the twin cylinder Yamaha. Found them reliable and easy to use and they passed rough duty road racing with flying colors.

Since I started road racing 9 nine years ago I have used the Dyna system that was originally built for the H2 but has not been available for a long time. I have 2 complete systems plus some spares and they have worked well for me but 9 years of road racing is hard duty and a failure in the near future is probably inevitable. Asked Borut about his triples specific systems recently and he told me he had just built a new 3 channel system integrated into one box but did not have and H2 to test it on. So I had him send a few over and spent last weekend installing and testing the system on my race H2. I started with stock H2 coils and pickups and got the system up and running fairly easily. Only ran into one minor issue. Zeeltronic systems are designed so you input the maximum number of degrees mechanically available for timing advance. This is done by physically measuring the number of degrees of crank rotation from the pickup trigger point to TDC. This is abnormally small on the H2 compared to a typical Yamaha twin which is about 34 degrees. I was able to achieve 24 degrees maximum but it required the pickup timing plate and the pickups to be rotated clockwise to their maximum adjustment range to achieve that. Seemed odd so I reread the section of the H series shop manual on the ignition and remembered that most of the timing curve was in the thyristor and how quickly it reacted to the trigger at different rpms which jives with what I found.

That being said this should still work well with the H2 and the other triples this system can be used with (H1D, KH400, S3). On my race H2 I run a relatively flat curve that never exceeds 22 degrees and with the quality of today's gas that should be more than enough for a stock triple. The single box system is $350 and will fit the same space as the stock gold boxes. Plug and play with the stock coils and pickups with many nice modern features such as tach, quick shifter, shift light and power jet outputs as well as a 3 stage rev limiter. You can program 2 timing curves into the unit that can be modified while the engine is running. You can also switch back and forth between the 2 curves while riding with a push button input.

Also nice is the fact the system does not use the Kawi high or low speed coils so if you have a stator where those are not functional it can still be used.

Next step will be to install this system on a street H2 and H1 to confirm it works well with regular gas and standard Kawi wiring harnesses which I'll do shortly. Don't expect any problems with that.

You can check it out here if you're interested: http://tinyurl.com/jwz8tt9

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http://www.fastfromthepast.com"



Its interesting for sure…. I wonder if my rotor idea will work …worst part is I won't know for a few months!

Joe H

Hi agsin.
Maybe, maaaaybe we got something here.

Don't bother about the rotary position vs pick -ups. Don't bother using a degree wheel. ONLY thing you have to do is this:

Find the 3,13 mm btdc.
At that exact point, make a mark on your rotor that PERFECTLY match the timing knob attached to your bolt that holds the stator plate to the stator guide base.

This is the exact point for a 23 degrees timing when your STROBOSCOPE show you they match perfectly too each other. Don't bother about the factory marks.

So, program a flat 23 degree curve. Set your compensation to zero.

Fire it up, and attach the STROBOSCOPE.

Adjust the STATIC TIMING on your zeel to a point where your new mark on the rotor perfectly aligns with the steel timing knob.

What static angle input does your zeel require to make those to match each other?

It should be AT LEAST 26-27 degrees static, mine is 28 or 29 I think.

Please make this attemt one last time using stock rotor if you have one.

Jørgen

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72 H2, 72 H1B, 74 H2, 74 H2 Cafê Racer, 71 F8 Bison

That is how I did it except I did not mess with the composition value I left it at 30 and checked it and it seemed stable, all with the same results as I posted. The Zeel static timing ended up at 27 deg static angle and the marks at 23 deg line up when I strobe it. I was still getting that annoying cutting out until I programed in a timing curve with max advance lower than 25 deg.
And when I tried to figure out where it was firing at max advance by marking my rotor as pictured above I noticed it would hover between the 23 deg mark and the 25 deg mark never above the 25 deg mark, no matter what timing curve I programed. Max advance on a programed curve set at 26 but the strobe showed it firing at just above 23deg...that is why this is so frustrating and that is why I wanted to try something different and see the results.
My only mistake could be not reading the strobe correctly because of my inexperience.
I am convinced I am not getting the same results as you or Phil, and that is a concern for me.
Maybe I have a bad Zeel box, or bad pick-up signal.
My hope is that my Zeel box isn't bad, Jim H had said he was only getting around 24 deg also when he tested the PCDI-30
When I do check it as per Zeel instructions the pick-up and rotor align (leading edge) at 23.3 deg with the engine not running, so the triggering point for the pick-ups suggest what I have found when its running.

I don't care about max advance UNLESS it will help the flat spot. So If I only get 23 or 24 deg max and I can get some relief from the flat spot from better porting or better jetting I will be satisfied. And I cannot have the ignition cutting out like it was, that was really annoying.

Will this rotor advancing work, I don't know??
If anyone has some idea how the pick-ups work and think I am going to destroy something with this experiment let me know.
It only takes a minute to switch it back to the other rotor so I have done nothing permanent.

I was involved in the initial setup of the zeel in a 750 last spring.

This bike had its trigger rotor key way recut to advance the rotor. The resulting mechanical trigger point ended up around 60 degrees btdc.

As long as the zeel has the correct mechanical/ static reference any actual firing point less than this value can be programmed.

With the above bike we intially marked the rotor for a 15 degree point. We then programmed the zeel for a flat 15 degree curve. It was now just a matter to input the correct static value until we got the 15 degree marks to align when strobing. With the above bike we ended up with a 59 degree value inputted for the static value.

With the above actual static value now established any wanted timing curve (below 59 degrees) can be programmed into the zeel unit.

J

Is that a "yes it should work"?
Is the "trigger rotor keyway" the thing I drilled ?

Sorry for having to ask….
Thanks for the patience all of you show me and my rambling on.

It is not a matter of "should work" but "will work".

As said even with the trigger point of the pickups/rotor set at 60 degrees btdc the actual firing point of the zeel can be programmed to15 degrees btdc.


The advantage of a second keyway cut into the trigger rotor is it can be returned to the stock position if the stock iggy is reinstalled. (Maintaining original trigger rotor to the alt rotor position is a must with the stock iggy)

J