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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:18 pm 
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Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico
battleax wrote:
Ja-Moo wrote:
So your lab seal came apart also Joe?


Not mine, but yes indeed, moved, loose in the cases, ran into the bearing and started coming apart. Hard to know which came first.

Just trying to get an accurate account. You had said it was the same thing, and his came apart. I was just trying to verify.

Again moving is apparently enough of an issue that the European lab seal I saw last night had o rings in the diameter, can't be any other reason but to make sure they hold still.

The o rings are a nice secondary for sure, but not a necessity, Even Chris said so.

I can't tell the tone the comment was made in, and I know you are too nice of a guy to be sarcastic, all I am trying to do is give everyone a heads up, Marc was well on his way to engine damaging failure, but we caught it in time, and no damage, just a rebuilt crank.

No, not sarcastic at all Joe. With things like this, details are very important. That's why all the questions, that's all.

I was not being sarcastic asking for the logic, I really could not think why one would not use sealant or something like it. Apparently fear of distorting the seal is the logic.

lab seals have to be pretty precise, there is only a few thousands of clearance from the crank, and only a few thousands allowed for crush in the cases. They don't have to be "tight" as they don't touch anything, just snug in the cases. Sealer not only causes more crush, which in turn could be enough to close up the clearance on the crankshaft, causing contact, or contact at higher rpm's with some crank flex. Sealer also makes for a flexible coating that can cause movement when it get hot. So it's a good possibility the sealer was the cause.

There is also the possibility the seal was not machined to the correct tolerance. But no way to really check now.


If there is more insight into the care and use of labyrinth seals, I for one would be glad to hear it.

The only other thing, is to make sure the seal outer and the cases are clean and free of oil.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:26 pm
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Location: Running Springs Ca
So how would you check to see if the clearance is correct on the lab seal? What about using something like
plastigage? How much clearance would be preferred?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:39 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:00 am
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Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
67lotus49 wrote:
So how would you check to see if the clearance is correct on the lab seal? What about using something like
plastigage? How much clearance would be preferred?


The area of issue is the lab seal's OD. As such it should be an interference fit when the case is closed (not able to be checked with plastigage). I'm guessing the correct OD of the seal will be equal to, or slightly larger than the OD of the adjacent bearings.

J


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:46 pm 
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inside, and outside micrometers.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:58 pm 
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So the lab seal should measure slight larger to give a interference fit then?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:17 pm 
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true

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:21 am 
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Location: Just north of Toronto, Ontario
The o-ring simply allows a clearance fit on the OD... If it were me, I'd check both the journal and seal to confirm that the resultant fit is good if no o-ring... If too tight, it will screw up the bearing fit as well, equally as bad!
In other words, I'd need a pretty strong argument for NOT using an o-ring before I'd consider a design without one.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:09 am 
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I've got a set of Chris's lab seals as well (for an H1).. If I ever build a high-hp H1, they will be used.

Otherwise......
These days, I roll with rubbers seals. 8-)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:01 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:25 am
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I've used aluminum center seals in all sorts of multi cylinder Kawasaki and other engines for decades. Built my first ones in the early 1980's, after the Yamaha design, and no problems. As far as I am concerned, they are the way to go, with some 'engineering' along the way. I always cut the OD of my aluminum seals to the same exact OD the main bearings on either side of them are, so crush is same for the seal and bearing, taking into consideration that the cases can be worn. That is where the O rings help.

A good check of both the main bore diameters, and OD of the seal is mandatory, to make sure there aren't crush issues past what a main bearing does to the stock, clean, unworn main bore.

I always use O rings on the OD's, they help allow for a light misalignment of the seal to center race, and they help seal the seal to the case. I have also used Three-Bond 1104, and, 1194 on the seal OD's that do not have O rings, never had a binding/growth issue, never had a seal/crank fail from adding the sealer.

I like to add a Yamaha feature, a dowel pin to the upper case (Yamaha cases load into the bottom case, not the top), along with a holder hole in the OD of the center seal, to help let it stay aligned, and in place. Yamaha race type twin and four cylinder horizontally split two stroke cases use a ball bearing receiver to hold the main bearings in place, and a dowel for the center seal as well.

I always build my seals like the Yamaha ones, and do not waste cut (back cut) the area between the outer area of the seal 'lip" to the edge of the seal. I see some of the currently available seals have radical undercuts between the seal area and outer edge of the lip, and I feel this does not help seal integrity, only makes for a seal that, if stays in contact with the inner bushing, can over load the side of the seal lip, to failure.

An aluminum center seal can ride against its inner bushing/collar, with no adverse effect, as long as the seal itself isn't worn excessively, allowing too large a seal to bush clearance on the other side of the seal.

Crankshaft alignment is also absolutely critical in allowing aluminum seals to live. A crankshaft out of true a half, thousandth, can side load an outer seal lip to serious wear/failure.

I have also used other outer seals in some applications, building an aluminum holder that carries two outer seals smaller than the OD of the stock main bore, on either side of the holder. This works well, too, but, is not as long lived as a full aluminum center seal is.

The original H1R's used a two seal setup for center use, back to back, two lip, positive pressure against the crank. This differed from H1 E# 8801 and later. The early H1 street bike seals were proprietary, they used crankcase pressure to push the seal lips against the crank bushing, and were not in contact when the engine was stopped. ALL factory H2R cranks, and later stock street bike H1, after E# 8800, and, all street H2's, used positive pressure seals. These seal lips were always in direct contact with the center bushing, engine running, or stopped.

Just info to consider.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:37 pm 
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Quote:
I always cut the OD of my aluminum seals to the same exact OD the main bearings on either side of them are, so crush is same for the seal and bearing, taking into consideration that the cases can be worn. That is where the O rings help.


Splitting hairs here but this is THE reason I like the o-ring... When the outer race of a bearing is fixed, (as it is in this scenario) the general practice is to have a slight clearance fit on the housing and the inner race has the interference fit with the shaft to hold the bearing in place.
The opposite is true if the outer race is spinning.

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