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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:46 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:23 pm
Posts: 3821
Location: Colorado Springs, CO. USA
History:
I’ve had this engine 39 years – never any issues with the transmission (slipping out of gear, hard shifting etc). I destroyed the original engine in 1978 on a freeway crash. Deb at Jacks Go Shop in San Bruno CA rebuilt the engine for me.

I’ve split the casing a few times over the years, broken kicker shaft, seals, rebuilt crank etc.
Always checking wear on gears, dogs, shift forks etc. Other than one of the dogs showing slight wear nothing amiss. I had the engine open about 5 years ago when I installed the rebuilt crank from Charlie. Maybe 2500-3000 miles on it since then and no problems at all anywhere.

I’m very much aware of case pin dowels ((question on dowels below)) – this might be the problem. Thanks John Schlumberger for pointing this out along with the new circlip types).

I always checking case fitment, shifting and all matting surfaces before buttoning the cases.

Problem:
1. This summer I was doing some riding in Texas and as I was riding the transmission shift was stuck – would not change into any gear up or down. There was play on the shifter but not enough to change gear position.

2. With some semi-aggressive movement on the shift lever and rocking the bike managed neutral.

3. I split the casing and found the circlip between 4th and 2nd broken. I found part of the circlip in the case (I think I got it all). There were no serious marks or scaring where a piece of the circlip or any other matter was flying around…. The only thing I did not take out was the shift-drum. Read below….

4. Replaced the circlip with the newer types, everything dry shifted fine, buttoned it up and did a couple of different (short) test rides, everything seemed fine.

5. Fired it up to take out for a ride (third one since buttoned back up). Made it down the street and it locked up again – same problem – would not shift.

6. Opened it up and nothing wrong except the damn same circlip (between 4th and 2nd) had jumped out of the groove but was not broken. (could have been my error over-stressing these new clips – I hate them – I do have a nice circlip pier set). Everything dry-shifts fine – again with the case off – and pretty sure will with the case on too – like last time.

7. This time I took extra special care looking for something wrong – nothing….. And I pulled the shift drum this time – nothing wrong there either – a very fine mark where something “might have” rubbed in the drum but no metal anywhere in any of the oil, in the case, anywhere….

I have a H1 transmission in good shape I’m thinking about using. Other than a different ratio it fits and dry shifts fine.

Dowel Question:
I notice the two dowels on the transmission shaft locators are slightly lower than the clutch push rod bushing. I’ve seen a few other pictures of cases like this too – maybe it’s normal?

Looking for anything that would cause this Lock Up problem I took a hard look at this (thanks again John Schlumberger). I’ve attached some close-ups of the bearing caps and cases. I cannot see where the caps would have spun off the dowel pins and not left a serious mark. You can see some slight marks on the cases around the dowel pins and on the bearing caps but again nothing that I think would indicate the caps have spun under load – just my normal assembly and checking – maybe I’m wrong. The H1 bearing caps look identical. If this is not normal please someone chime in.

Note - I certainly would have noticed something wrong if they were NOT aligned properly during assembly.

First time opened it up – originally thought circlip breakage from age….
Image

Image

Second time opened it up, could have been just me over-stressing the new circlip type.
Image

Case pictures and caps.
You can see the holes in the caps don't appear to be rounded where they would have slipped off the dowel.
Image

This is putting the cap over the dowel for the clutch rod pusher (pusher dowel is higher compared to the other pin dowels).
Just getting a high/low inside look comparison.
Image

Image

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This is true. Where I grew up the hills were so steep and long, when your ball rolled down the hill you just said "screw it"...


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:01 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:52 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: South Dakota
Barry, the locating pin is pushed in some but I can't help with the circlip problem, sorry.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:16 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:23 pm
Posts: 3821
Location: Colorado Springs, CO. USA
GUTS wrote:
Barry, the locating pin is pushed in some but I can't help with the circlip problem, sorry.


Thanks for that - I was concerned about the dowels being somewhat lower. Not sure about the circlip either ---

Note on the original transmission shafts and gears: I don't see anything on them or the bearings where some foreign matter (part of old circlip maybe) would have lodged in. I only took the one transmission shaft apart for a really good check - but it seemed fine. If there had been some metal flinging around and getting stuck somewhere I would think it would show some scaring or marks someplace...

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This is true. Where I grew up the hills were so steep and long, when your ball rolled down the hill you just said "screw it"...


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:47 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:14 pm
Posts: 272
dowel pins look ok. make 100% sure you dont have any piece of the old circlip caught up in the shift drum or gear dogs. I would try new oem circlips and use a good pliers to install. So they fit tight and dont spin in the grooves. Use the toothed washers for all gears as well. As a general rule, use the 1mm tooth washer on the back side of the gear and use the .5mm shim on the front side of the gear to promote best engagement.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 4:23 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:03 am
Posts: 4603
Location: Milang, South Australia
Well. they are big close up pics, but I DON'T think the dowel pins look O.K. I just wonder if they are pushed low, that the bearing sleeve is moving around a little, and therefore everything is moving a little........ just a thought. :think: Just on thinking about a H1 transmission, this one crops up periodically.....they go in, and they work, and people don't seem to have durability problems, but, having done that conversion many years ago, I reckon the ratios are wrong, and it just doesn't work on a H2. the gap between 1-2 and 2-3 doesn't look like much on paper, but you can feel it, and a H2 with a H2 box is going to go past you in a drag race! I mean, Kawasaki changed the ratios for a reason, and I was disappointed when I made the change. Just an FYI! (Not to argue with Johnso2, just another opinion!)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:23 pm
Posts: 3821
Location: Colorado Springs, CO. USA
RODH2 wrote:
Well. they are big close up pics, but I DON'T think the dowel pins look O.K. I just wonder if they are pushed low, that the bearing sleeve is moving around a little, and therefore everything is moving a little........ just a thought.


There's no slop with the bearing caps Rod. They're solid and tight. I was just concerned that they were low but I saw pictures of other cases that they were low too (but not pushed in).

I hear ya John on a piece of metal being somewhere. I pulled the shift drum and forks off, they were clean (groves, inside/outside etc).
I disassembled one of the shafts before needing to replace the circlip, nothing in it anywhere and I've examined the second shaft as much as possible - there's only so many places a bit of metal can hide.... hum.... Yes I have a full set of good pliers too. I also have a set of the oem circlips - they are easier to install.

All, I'm still not sure what caused this in the first place. And remember I it all back together and it worked fine for a couple of rides and broke again. I don't think the second time circlip out of the groove was the cause either....

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This is true. Where I grew up the hills were so steep and long, when your ball rolled down the hill you just said "screw it"...


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:55 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:14 pm
Posts: 936
Location: Martinsburg, WV
The shaft slot where the circlip rides isn't rounded is it? Maybe pressure on the gear is dislocating it. Clip spin on the shaft once installed fairly easy?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:10 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:14 pm
Posts: 272
Couple other thoughts --
Make sure the circlips are installed with the rounded edge facing in towards the gear.
You sure you got all the thrust washers for the needle bearing installed? Check side-to-side clearance with trans installed in case.
Was clutch hub nut tight? If it comes loose the shaft can slide side to side and cause problems.


My best guess is that your repair was flawed in some way after the first time the clip broke. Buy 5 new clips and go again.
:mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:46 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:09 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Pacific Northwest
BarryB wrote:
CLIPPED QUOTE

3. I split the casing and found the circlip between 4th and 2nd broken. I found part of the circlip in the case (I think I got it all). There were no serious marks or scaring where a piece of the circlip or any other matter was flying around…. The only thing I did not take out was the shift-drum. Read below….

4. Replaced the circlip with the newer types, everything dry shifted fine, buttoned it up and did a couple of different (short) test rides, everything seemed fine.

5. Fired it up to take out for a ride (third one since buttoned back up). Made it down the street and it locked up again – same problem – would not shift.

6. Opened it up and nothing wrong except the damn same circlip (between 4th and 2nd) had jumped out of the groove but was not broken. (could have been my error over-stressing these new clips – I hate them – I do have a nice circlip pier set). Everything dry-shifts fine – again with the case off – and pretty sure will with the case on too – like last time.

First time opened it up – originally thought circlip breakage from age….
Image

Image

Second time opened it up, could have been just me over-stressing the new circlip type.
Image


Barry, I was wondering if you got this resolved and if so what was the fix?

In looking at the photos and maintenance manual it seems to me that you are showing 2 different circlips breaking on the output shaft. If that is so, then I have a question of how many shims of what sizes are shown in your third picture, on the right side of the second gear. It looks to me that there are at least 2 shims and the collar, between the bearing and second gear.

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H1-D
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:26 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:23 pm
Posts: 3821
Location: Colorado Springs, CO. USA
Yes the first one was the stock clip that broke. The second is a newer one I replaced it with. I have not done anything other than replacing them - the transmission was working fine not a rebuild or anything. My fix now is probably just sending it out.

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This is true. Where I grew up the hills were so steep and long, when your ball rolled down the hill you just said "screw it"...


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